The BIG Über Rock Interview – Rat Scabies [Part Two]

Written by DJ Astrocreep
Sunday, 07 October 2018 10:03

In circumstances outlined in yesterday’s first part of this exhaustive conversation, I recently caught up with the drummer born Christopher John Millar in a pub near to his house, for a chat about his long and storied career.

Having already discussed his belief that the punk movement would be very short-lived, how he views the ways in which the music business has changed and his dislike of hipsters, we turned back to his career, and wound the clock back to his involvement in the first punk single, ‘New Rose’. Before pressing the record button, I had mentioned to him that that song was responsible for making me want to start drumming when I was a fair bit younger than I am now. So, I wondered, was there any particular thing that made him come up with the drums for that, or was it just Brian [James] did the riff and then he played along?

Well, we were big fans of ‘Jet Boy Jet Girl’ by the Dolls and I loved that beginning of it, that chang-cha-cha-chang. Brian was messing about with it and he played ‘New Rose’ and he said “it’s not the same as Jet Boy but you could easily think it” and I said “why don’t I do this then?” That really was just it. It was born and I guess with the drum thing on that it took the guitar away from sounding similar to anything else, I suppose.

Yeah because obviously Dave (Vanian) starts with, ‘Is she REALLY going out with him?’ It’s the almost derisory of the sound of his voice when he does it.

That mock American accent of his!

Yep and then obviously you come in with tshhtshhtshhtshhtshh. You said just before we started that you thought it was quite simple but I thought there is more to it, maybe because of the way you play – with extra toms I think, don’t you?

That was a five-piece. Yeah, I only use that setup, really. I use a smaller one now, which is a pain in the arse. Not enough drums! It’s a very simple drum plan you know and it’s. But I think there were other moments in the record that aren’t as obvious, there’s a couple of things that I sort of listened to and I’d go ooo I wasn’t expecting that, which I think is, that’s kind of part of the quest, to come up with something that people are not expecting. When it surprises yourself, it’s even better!

So it’s more by instinct, you might have a pattern in mind and kick into something else

You know, I never ever recorded anything that sounded the way that it did in my head! You always kind of imagine it would come out a certain way, but actually it never did and so playing that first album, nobody, well I didn’t know what was going to work and what wasn’t, or if it did cause there weren’t really tape recorders in those days. I think there were a couple of microcassette players that had come on the market but that thing of being able to hear it back and go, ‘”Oh, I know what should be happening”. It was actually quite a big extravagant process in 75 or 76. But yeah, you know, you never know!

Rat Scabies The Mutants Moving on from your Damned stuff you actually have got three albums out this year haven’t you? Professor And The Madman, your solo album and you’ve got is it The Mutants album towards the end of the year?

Yeah, I’m not sure what’s happening with that, really. The Mutants stuff was the soundtrack for a company called Killer Tricks, which are part of Universal in America. We started out with it being like a band thing you know and everything sounded like groups and you know, I really enjoyed that record I thought it was really good to make and we could never tape any of it live, it was just always too many people involved you know?

Too many schedules conflicting?

Yeah. I mean we played one show in Tokyo with the second album and it was Tokyo-based and we did a couple in Joshua Tree, in and around Vegas and stuff, but it was just hard work. Then, our guitar player quit so we scheduled again in New York to make another record for Killer but we realised actually that we were wasting our time with giving them sort of songs and tunes and things that sounded like a finished record because most of the thing is the soundtrack: really what they want is instrumental with something that they can have on in the background whilst somebody’s painting their car or such. So, when we got back to New York to do this next one, I just sort of said we’re wasting our time trying to craft this into an album, let’s just put it down as it is and get some good takes. So whether that one will see the light of day, I don’t know. I know Killer will be using it for licensing things but whether it ever comes out on CD or anything like that is another thing entirely!

Well your own solo album ‘PhD’, it must have taken about 30 years from your first, didn’t it?

Yeah well, first of all, I was in The Damned for a lot of the time and so pretty much everything I wrote went into that so that’s one of the reasons why I didn’t do it. Doing a solo record was really something that was going on when the band wasn’t working or weren’t functioning or were just things that I had done and there wasn’t room for them on the album or we didn’t really need it or you know what have you. I’m always wary about old material resurfacing because I think the public often think it’s all old material that you’ve just cobbled together from a few cassettes that you’ve found in the bottom of the drawer somewhere. But, actually right up until we had mastered the album, I was still working on songs that a lot were quite what I would call quite recent… But, some of it goes back to the Eighties. I was going to call it ‘Prosperity and Beyond’: that was originally going to be the title. I was pleased with the way it all sounded, and what it was. I thought it’d be nice just to have it out there really, not because I expected to gather a solo career or take it on the road or do anything like that, cause I’m not. It was just somebody said, “you know, you should put a record out” and so I thought “yeah, why not?” It’s been a lot of fun doing it. I’ve done so many interviews and things… I’ve forgotten what a merry-go-round it all was!

You did a cover of Louis Prima’s ‘Sing Sing Sing’ as well on there. Was there any particular reason you chose that song?

One of my oldest drum favourites from when I was a kid was you know It was on, I can’t remember the name of the album I had of Glenn Miller’s. I think it was like Glenn Miller’s greatest hits or something, I’m pretty sure it was on there and it just, you know, it’s such a great song. Originally I was going to do it with a big band or try and then as soon as I got the first saxophone part on it I thought this was going to end up sounding really shit and I really loved the way Joe Atkinson played the piano on it. I really love his style cause it’s like you’re in the assembly hall at school or something, you’ve just got that naivety about the way he does things. The song is strong anyway that the dynamic of it carries all those different sections so that made me feel like it was right to just leave a stripped down version, just leave the chassis of it.

Your own mark on it, so to speak?

Yeah kind of, not intentionally. I was doing my best to copy it *laughs* but you can’t you know you can’t copy things that way it doesn’t work out like that.

I think I’ve always had the personal view that if you’re not changing something about it, making it your own kind of thing…

Then why bother? Yeah exactly, I’m the same, you know you’ve got to do it. I think we kind of generally did that with everything that The Damned covered and maybe later on it was more like a kind of updated version of the original you know, but it did sound… just the sound quality that we’ve got, just because it’s recorded so many years later, etc., etc,

The production values…

…are higher, so yeah, it was kind of giving it a shine and you know a bit of a polish and we did a similar thing. Help, I feel that was our greatest moment of doing a cover cause it redefined the song, it redefined the meaning of the lyrics. It gave it a much more kind of psychotic.

Yeah the more punkish spirit to it that you portrayed at the time

Yeah exactly. With Lennon and Mccartney it was a love song and ours was a plea, a cry for help *laughs*

In a way similar to ‘Every Breath You Take’ by The Police, which is actually not quite what people seemed to make of it. It was actually quite creepy if you look at the lyrics, it was quite stalkerish

Yeah. I knocked three times. Is anyone in there? Yeah, there are quite a lot of things that are quite creepy.

Prof And The Madman artwork The other album you’ve had out this year was ‘Disintegrate Me’ with Professor and the Madman. It was quite punk n rollish, I think, for lack of a better way of putting it, it’s the feeling of The Damned but obviously the California almost psychedelic feel to it as well that the other two guys bring in.

Yeah, they were really you know kind of the real deal. It’s sort of surf punk from Orange County and I would spend a fair amount of time out there and everything and they always loved the whole vibe down there, back then. It’s changed a lot now, now that they’ve cleaned it up, made it pleasant, but back then, there was nothing wrong with it but there was a lot of punks and skaters and there were a lot of bands and there were a lot of parties. It used to have this whole little party scene.

I suppose in California their gardens are bigger, and their garages, and have less noise problems so a lot of houses would have parties on weekends. Local bands would play at them and they’d do their thing and they would go and do their big Hollywood show and 500 people from Orange County would go and they’d get signed and then, you know… It was all kinda good. Not that I expect that from Professor and the Madman, but I kinda knew about the bands they were in and I knew they were friendly, sort of thing and they were big Damned fans. I suppose in some ways you could probably hear some of that influence coming through, you know, in the songs, which makes it easier for me to kind of understand what I’m supposed to do.

Yeah, so how was it that you met them in the first place?

It was an awful sweater party! *laughs*

Sweater party?

Yeah, at Christmas they would have these, this was an event and the deal was everybody had to wear the worst sweater they’ve got given for Christmas. So people would turn up with these really hideous things that were the wrong size or way too big with a giant reindeer on them and just nasty colours or something that just doesn’t fit them or you know… They were playing there and they asked me if I would do a song with them so I think we played Smash It Up.I was quite impressed with them because Smash it up really not a very easy song to play. So there’s a lot of, you know what I mean, just the chord structure in the song itself changes with every verse. It always finishes on a different chord. It’s kind of a weird thing, it’s led by the melody and normally people get that or weren’t bothered to work that much out and be like ah yeah I’ve got it and then they kind of look surprised when they get to the end of the second verse and they’re in the wrong place. But there wasn’t any of that with either of them. They knew it and they played it well and I thought yeah, I like these boys, and then they rang me up the next day to ask if I wanted to go down and record a track with them, they’ve got a track recorded that they thought sounded very like The Damned and would I be Rat Scabies on it. So I did and they wanted to do some more so I think I did about three sessions and about five or six songs in each session, all long distance.

So they sent the tracks to you and then you’d send them back?

Yeah it was very refreshing when you’re in Tottenham Hale when it’s a rainy Thursday afternoon and you’re all of a sudden getting all of this enthusiastic Californian, you know getting it right kind of thing.

So was it your idea to bring Paul Gray in on it as well?

No, no, it was theirs. I think they just really wanted to get him, I think they just really loved Paul’s playing and the way he does things. They said that that period was their favourite period of The Damned, so for them it made sense to spend a bit more money I guess and to try to get Paul on it. That way at least you know a lot of Damned fans would pick up on it a bit because of the music, not similarities but you know it’s the same kind of thing.

How do you feel that the gig went then from your point of view because obviously, the artist point of view is going to be quite different from anyone in the crowd!

I don’t know. I never do cause I’m so sort of full up with what bit comes next! *laughs* Where I am, I very rarely am able to know. I saw a couple of clips from it on Youtube which sounded good, so that was alright you know

Is that what you would do afterwards, you’d go onto YouTube to try to get feedback on your own playing?

No they filmed it and they would send me a link to some of it. It’s good, the great thing about the live shows is it’s done, you know it doesn’t matter if you’ve made a mistake. It’s a passing moment. It’s over. So when people do film it you’re sort of like errrr cause it gets critical but if you go in there thinking I must be perfect you know you’re only going to fuck it up!

Yeah you just seize up and then…

Yeah, I didn’t play the songs the same way, with the same kind of backbone and beats and stuff but I wasn’t doing the same thing as I didn’t make a point of learning every fill that led into something, cause I can’t do that. *laughs*

Fair enough. Besides the music, you do a few other things as well. I think I’ve read something about you make your own guitars out of cigar boxes?! How did you get into that?

Just by accident. My boy came home one day with a cigar box and I just remembered this story of these old blues guys that made guitars out of cigar boxes cause they didn’t have money for instruments or they weren’t anywhere near a shop. Anyway, I had a piece of wood that was about the same size as the neck and I had some old machine heads and I thought and I thought for about two days. I was just staring at these items and I had this piece of wood thinking how can I, how would you do that. How can I do that? I made the first one and it was really quite popular, you know, people liked it. Then somebody gave me some boxes and said can you make one for me and if you do that you can have these and I did, I knocked a few out, but it’s a very therapeutic thing to do because I was never very good at woodwork! I never really did it at school so suddenly I had to go in this world of saws and I haven’t got a workshop or anything like that. I do it all out on my porch and kind of balancing things on a shoestring.

Ye Olde man kind of style?

Yeah and I think that’s all part of it really cause a big part of the fun is covering the fuck ups. So I’d try to chisel it out and half the headstock snaps off and you’re suddenly going “how am I going to fix that so it still works?”

It’s a 3/4! *laughs*

Yeah, well there’s that and they’re all different. They all have a different box or a different way of putting it together.

So they were all unique?

They are, yeah, pretty much, I’ve stopped doing them now, not for any other reason, I’m not finding bits of wood that are the right size, because I used to like freecycling, really. I mean some of the bits and pieces I had to buy but really I much prefered it if I could find a box.

Is it that whole reusing rather than going out to get the ideal bits

Yeah and it’s not a manufactured thing. I found a box that was on the Thames and it was washed up – I found that – and then he had this big old dining cabinet thing. His dad and his grandfather has a Beefeater and he had this brass plaque on it. He was throwing it out cause it was too big and had the brass plaque off it, put it on another box and then found a piece of oar that was lying around on the island and then I’d turn that into the nag. So it was a really complete thing in a way, because it was a box that had rinsed up on the shore of the island and the oar had been used on there for the boating. It was a memory of his grandfather and it was a really complete kind of, and I love that sort of thing, it all has a purpose.

Finishing the circle kind of thing?

Yeah and the woman up the road, the box was her fathers. He used to keep screws or something in it and so she gave it to me and I turned it into a guitar. Then she gave it to her sister to play as a guitar and so of course her mum was delighted ‘cause all of a sudden the old man’s box had now found a new purpose being used. Again it’s a nice complete thing, if you can do it. I can’t always. Sometimes it’s just bits of wood that I’ve found in the front garden!

You’ve got some other interests as well, is it the Saunière society? Could you explain about it?

Well the society itself was run by my parents for a long time. Saunière is the name of a priest in a small village in the south of France and that in itself is a really puzzling story. The society was kind of set up for people with esoteric interests so the thing with Saunière and the region in France, it’s not just about that. It kind of introduces so many different elements from the Knights Templar, the crusades, medieval art, well not medieval art and geometry and flying saucers and Egyptology and freemasons. All of these topics that it kind of touched in this one mystery of this priest in the south of France and the Saunière society pretty much set up meetings with different people and they come to talk about different esoteric topics and they can range from anything – from Mary Magdalene to yew trees, in some cases *laughs*. We’ve had the head of the Scottish lodge talking to us several times and you know a few Knight’s Templar in attendance and it’s all really good fun. So that’s what the Saunière society does. It has meetings, it runs a journal. It’s pretty much a place where people with that kind of mindset or that way of thinking could gather.

You’ve also got a TV documentary. Are you still filming that or is it planned for release?

Yeah, I’m just waiting for the editor on that. I’m not sure if that’s going to be a goer, or if the idea worked. The editor’s just putting that together now, so when he’s done his bit I’ll have a look and see what I think about it and see if it works. I’m not sure if it did. I don’t want to say too much, as it might be dead in the water already.

OK, so going back to your musical career, just to finish off. Are there any particular gigs or anything like that kind of stick out in your head as particularly good for any reason?

Oh there were a few. I can’t remember if it was Edinburgh or Glasgow… I just always remember crowds. We used to do ‘Looking At You’ and in the middle section we used to jam and the band would love that section of the song cause it meant we could actually go off and change groove if we wanted. We’d always use the dynamic and we’d always take it down really quiet once we’d finished expressing ourselves and you’d always get “Get on with it you cunt” abuse. I just remember this one show and nobody did and it was one of those when the audience get so locked in and the band so locked in, and everybody’s on the same page: It was one of those moments and it really was. You could just feel the total silence and it seemed to last for ages – though I’m sure it didn’t: nobody shouted, nobody whistled, nobody did any of that. Everybody was actually listening and was in the same place we were: that always stands out as one of the memorable kind of things and that happened a few times.

I remember once at the Liverpool Empire we had a moment. We had one of those. It was a really belting gig on the ‘Phantasmagoria’ tour. I remember it because when we first went out there everybody was really well up for it and it was the first time we had taken a bigger production and I think it was that Damned fans were ready for punk to grow up a bit and to get a bit of creditability, I suppose. You know because when we signed to MCA I was talking to the guy that signed us and he was saying that everyone thought he was fucking crazy, taking on The Damned of all bands, who were so notoriously troubled and we weren’t and he did actually have the face of at that point of about 84.

Punk rock was pretty much washed out and wasn’t really going anywhere, it was a leftover thing and I suppose if we hadn’t of again made the kind of records that we did with ‘Phantasmagoria’ and a lot of that was about Roman joining the band as well. You know the Captain went off with his ‘Happy Talk’ thing. I mean ‘Happy Talk’ showed us that even old style punks could have a big hit and it wasn’t a prejudice against you.

I always remember talking to Roman about it one day. We had been to a meeting with a record company, who said no and knocked us back pretty much. I was doing my usual “they’re all fucking idiots, they don’t know anything about music these days” kind of “blah blah blah”, and he said “you know what, Rat, you’re right but that’s not the reason we didn’t get a deal”. He said “the reason is we’re not giving them what they want” and suddenly it was like a light being switched on. It was like, “he’s right actually”. Then we did The Young Ones, and that was where it was cemented really, because of the show. It was nasty, it was all about video nasties and so the whole thing of everybody wearing dark clothes and going Dave, cause nobody had really done that, I mean Roman was coming all in black anyway, so he was pretty easy. Brian was kind of, you know, and then all of a sudden I went you know what look at this, this looks fucking great. This is a band with a proper identity… better than Dave!

Yeah cause Dave pretty much had that vibe about him before then anyway with the way he put himself across.

He always did. The trouble that we’d had, apart from the Captain’s non-availability, was that a label had come down to see us and said they thought the band was great, they loved us, they had already said yes to signing it on the strength of the demos. They said “we just want to come and see the band and see that we’re getting what’s on the table” – and then they passed and said no. I couldn’t even get a phone call with one of them. Up until then I had been speaking to them every day and then they pretty much said that “the Captain devalues Dave so much: you can’t have two frontmen and the Captain’s overshadowing Dave because of ‘Happy Talk’ and everything else…” and the fact that it’s the Captain anyway, he’s a hard man to pin down, you know?

Yeah, he’s definitely got his own style of things! *laughs*

Yeah, and so that was kind of, well, okay. Then Roman stepped up – but he was already kind of in the band anyway. He’d been playing keyboards and he and I had been playing tunes and we’d been working together so it wasn’t like he was a stranger that we had just hired in. He was somebody that we already knew that we wanted in the band

And then you’d probably already had a lot of influence on each other in different ways and styles of playing and such?

Yeah and he was good though, Roman. He’s bouncing about to ‘Smash It Up’ and you know I wouldn’t have noticed it, if he hadn’t have told me *laughs*, but he could play the songs properly on guitar. It was not always easy to cover all of that ground, you know, bless him, but ‘New Rose’ never sounded the same with the Captain playing it as when Brian played it. It’s a different beast, and the same goes for ‘Smash It Up’, when people play that and they don’t get it right. You always got that with whoever came out with it. But, with Roman, he did a really good job on covering all the ground… and with the keyboards thing as well. It was just really handy that he understood all that; so when we were in the studio, he could say, “hey, how would that part sound better like this and…”

Maybe give each other that bit of inspiration for it? If you put this little bit in instead, kind of thing?

Yeah, when he joined he had a really good understanding of the band and what it was and what it could be.

So maybe focus on slightly on the business side of things rather than just on the music

RS: Well, Roman was good with business; but, you know, The Damned was always pretty much an equal decision-making process. I know I come in for a lot of flack and abuse: “Rat did this” and “Rat did that”. But, you couldn’t get these people to do anything if they didn’t want to!

Yeah they don’t strike me as shrinking violets in any shape or form.

Yeah, they’re not going to back down quietly because you say you don’t agree and they don’t.

I guess sometimes you need that to actually get the best out of your songs too.

Well, we made the business. We put a lot of the business into Phantasmagoria. We had managers, agents, lawyers, accountants, bus drivers. It’s a funny thing, success, you know, the more people that make money from it, the more successful you become and um but they’ve all kind of got their career move and you’re trying to sell records and you’re trying to become a success. All those people are relying on you.

Roadies, people think they’re a luxury item and they’re not because whilst you’re setting up, first of all, if I fuck up my hand whilst setting up the drums or carrying the drum kit in or the guitar player breaks a finger or does something, everybody’s unemployed. That’s the first reason you have roadies. The second reason is that while they’re setting the gear up and doing all of that shit for you, you’re down the local newspaper or the local radio station getting effectively thousands of pounds worth of free advertising. Again, it’s cost-efficient. Only costs one hundred quid a week and publicity makes it worth it. Those are the reasons you have people doing stuff… you have somebody to drive the van… it’s all because the band would all be pissed in the back of it and it’s a liability. You have a tour manager because otherwise you’re not going to send the band in to go and collect the fucking money after they’ve just done a show to maybe 2000 people who you know, that kind of thing. They’re all essential but when you see it from the outside it looks as if you’re part of the big machinery, but it’s…

It’s not quite how the cogs work in the background.

Yeah and it’s not decadence, you could never afford decadence, really. Mind you, I suppose we did sometimes, but not often. The best decadent moment I think The Damned ever had was when The Ramones had played in London and they were staying at the Kensington Hilton, just down the road in Shepherds Bush. We went back to the hotel to see them and have a few drinks and hang out and that sort of thing and the hotel wouldn’t serve us the drink because we weren’t guests, so Roman booked a room *both laugh* just so that we could get served in the bar! Yeah, I think that was probably the biggest moment of decadence!

Are there any particular songs that in your head kind of stand out for what you brought to the track, or maybe something that you prefer playing live for whatever reason?

I’m really critical of everything that I’ve done and so one of the issues I’ve always had when listening to The Damned records is that I only really ever listen to the mistakes I’ve made, as opposed to listening to it as one big thing and realising that actually, the mistakes weren’t that bad and kind of worked anyway. But I don’t really have, I don’t know, really hard to say. Yeah, it’s not my place to know. Other people should decide.

Ok one last question. Is there anything like an extravagant rider that you’ve ever asked for or any of the band ever asked for that kind of sticks out as maybe a bit OTT?

Yeah, socks!

Socks? Was it a particular type of sock?

No, any old sock would do, we’d just wear them and throw them away. That’s decadent, I guess, but laundry was the biggest issue on the road cause it’s very difficult to get your washing done and when you’re all on a fucking bus and one of their feet are honking. It’s hard work for everybody, so I had socks put on the rider. That and 1400 cigs we’d smoke through!

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